Transcript#
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors.
Hey there, welcome to the Paws at Data Science Hangout. I'm Libby Heeren, and this is a recording of our weekly community call that happens every Thursday at 12 p.m. US Eastern Time. If you are not joining us live, you miss out on the amazing chat that's going on. So find the link in the description where you can add our call to your calendar and come hang out with the most supportive, friendly, and funny data community you'll ever experience.
Can't wait to see you there. Drumroll please. If you joined a little bit early, you probably saw the wrong name on the title of this Zoom meeting. The actual featured guests today are Rachael and myself. Mike Smith, who is clapping right now in his camera, has been and I'm going to, Mike, I'm going to ask you to unmute. How many years have you been asking for this to happen, Mike?
All of the years, I think. I think since we started Data Science Hangout, I suggested that, you know, Libby should be a featured guest. And you always pushed it away and said, no, no, no, I'm not. I, you know, I would be a terrible guest, but here we are, right?
Mike, I took your advice and I made her one of the featured guests every week.
Introductions
Okay. So here's what we will do. I will get Slido open, because I actually have not opened it yet. Rachael beat me to the Slido this morning. And Rachael and I will be moderating our own discussion back and forth. But that means that what we get to do is introduce ourselves to you and give you context building, just like we do for every other guest, even if that is uncomfortable. So Rachael, can you please introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do is something you like to do for fun.
Sure. So hi, everybody. So nice to see you all today. So I lead customer marketing at Posit. And if you've been with us from the data science hangout back in the early days, I started the data science hangout back in 2021, which I can't believe how long ago that was. And so I've been at Posit for I think about eight and a half years now. So I've had a variety of different roles at Posit, but I started on our sales team back in the day. And I was getting to talk to so many different customers across all different industries. And people were always asking, like, what are other people doing with Posit products? Or I'd love to talk to someone in this space. And so that's really where I started bringing people together for virtual meetups and things. And we can talk about this later, but that's kind of how the hangout came to be and how I ended up on the marketing team. And so I'm based in the Boston area. I'm actually at the Posit office today in the Seaport area. So if anyone's in Boston, let me know in the chat.
It'd be great to get to go for a walk, get coffee or something one day. But for fun, lately, I've been playing guitar more, and I'm trying to do something that scares me a little bit every year. So I just sign up for voice lessons because I've always been terrified to sing. So that's my new thing that I'm doing for fun. What about you, Libby? To no end. Well, Rachel's also a runner, I will say. Marathons, all kinds of things. I am eternally impressed by Rachel's running.
Hello, everybody. My name is Libby Herron. I am a data community manager here at Posit. I guess I am the data community manager here at Posit because there aren't any other ones. Rachel's actually my boss, and I am in charge of community events like the Hangout. I also host the Data Science Lab. So that means I host two live events every week with the community. And then there are more kind of one-off events that happen, not on a schedule that's weekly. So if you string them all together, I will be hosting more than 100 live events in 2026, probably. That is a lot. It seems like a lot. But it makes me really happy, and I really, really love it. I am sort of a serial community builder. I always have been. Since I was a little kid, I was the kid that every teacher put in a corner by herself because she just made everybody talk all the time. And I got millions of notes home to my parents that said, Libby is so smart, but she will not stop talking. So getting paid to actually talk to people and get them to talk to each other is a huge blessing, and I love it.
I don't know how many people know this about me, but I do animal rescue. And so I have lots and lots of kitty cats. I have been doing animal rescue for a very, very long time. Again, since I was a kid, I kind of grew up in a menagerie in a zoo. And so I have lots of cats who have special medical needs, and that takes up a lot of my life, actually. Okay, I think that that's it. I see that we have questions piling up in Slido. So should we go ahead and, yeah, get started? Mike, I see that you have asked a question. You are the reason we are doing this, so I would love it if you could ask your question live.
Return on investment for community events
Yeah, sorry to be the instigator and twisted fire starter and all of this. So we are, what did you say, Rachel? Five years down the line of DSH. So how do you describe to Posit Leadership the value of Data Science Hangout and the return on investment of what you're doing here? And also, if I can cheatily ask a second half of this question, which maybe the other person can respond to, is how do you think Data Science Hangout has changed over those five years? Or what are you most proud of?
Mike, you're starting off with the hard question right away.
I would say there's a lot of different things that we look at when it comes to ROI for something like this. And I think sometimes with community events, like you have to push back that it's not always about ROI. It's about like the goodness of bringing everybody together and how amazing it is that we have 166 people on a call right now on a Thursday. But one of the metrics that I like to look at and share with the team is like how many people have come to 10 or more Hangouts? Because I think that that really shows that it's a place that people want to be and they want to spend their time at and how important that is. Sometimes there are instances where somebody came to the Data Science Hangout and they ended up buying Posit Connect down the line. And that's an amazing story for me to be able to share, to say like, hey, look, this was somebody's first touch point with us. They came to the Hangout and a year later, now their team is using Posit Connect. And so that's not, I just like to say that's not the only thing we look at when it comes to ROI, but those kind of journeys are really helpful to show the team as well.
I think sometimes with community events, like you have to push back that it's not always about ROI. It's about like the goodness of bringing everybody together and how amazing it is that we have 166 people on a call right now on a Thursday.
And I'm really lucky to have Rachel who thinks about things like that because Rachel's like the business half of the brain here. I do have two business degrees, believe it or not. And I grew up, I was raised by small business owners, right? I grew up in home businesses. We literally had like a phone system in our house with three lines, like a fax line, a business line, a home line. And I learned how to answer business phones and switchboard calls by the time I was like five, right? But I tend to think so much more heavily about just human connection and how things are benefiting individual human beings or small groups of human beings. So it's great that Rachel will balance me out on that end and remind me of the business values and things because it's really, really important to me that people realize that they can advocate for community inside of their organizations as a business value. Because like you, if you want community to happen inside of your organization, you are going to need some sort of ROI to make that argument, right? Because your leadership needs to give you the time and the space and the bandwidth to do that. And there's massive benefits. So in being able to think of it as like there is ROI to community and that that's not a yucky or a weird thing. It's very important. It helps you do what you need to do.
I think another quick one I wanted to add is I can remember back in the day when I was on sales, we would see a lot of posts across Reddit, like how many people are actually using R in their companies. And a lot of people still thought that open source data science was just being used outside of their companies and just being used for fun. And I think the Hangout has been such an amazing way to show just how many companies across all different industries are using R and Python. And so while maybe that's not an ROI metric, I think it's a great customer advocacy metric that we can share with the team, too, to say like, look at these. We have 200 examples of different people using Posit and whether that's open source or pro products across the community. Yeah, I kind of like to think of that as helping people be nosy because you can't ask people what they're doing unless you get to know them. And if we can all get to know each other, then we can all talk to each other.
Libby's career arc into data science and community building
So Libby, you've mentioned a few times, you've kind of dropped hints that you've done some teaching, you've done some other community building things, like you've done a lot of that. I'm wondering if you might talk about your career arc through all of this, going from being a practitioner and kind of where you came from as you came into data science and then how that got you into teaching and community building.
Oh, gosh. Sure. It's a windy story. So I was in my late 20s. I was working in the back office of a credit union. I have a strong background in retail banking. I was a teller for a long time, did all kinds of things in the backside. I worked for years as a debit card fraud specialist. I probably know more about debit card processing and debit card fraud than anybody should. But banks are full of data, full of information, and transactional information is extremely interesting. And so I got my sort of start with data as just a spreadsheet queen, right? Like I was in spreadsheets all day, every day. And when you only have customers who are using your product in a single locality, in my case, Austin, when something happens, you can triangulate what's happening, right? Like you can say, okay, all of these people have the same type of fraud. Where does this, what do they all have in common in the last six months? So you get to use your sort of like knowledge of what's going on, your subject matter expertise of, okay, I usually see someone's card be compromised within three months of it being used maliciously. So let's look back three months. Let's see what all of these cards have in common. Let's narrow it down and then boots on the ground type stuff. Let's start calling places and saying, have you seen anything suspicious? Let's talk to police, to detectives, to other people in other organizations, other credit unions, right? Who might be seeing the same thing. We can get information from them to help triangulate. That is how I started in data science, right? Just doing data science without really being called a data scientist.
And I was working with neural networks back in like 2012, 2013, before a lot of people were, I was working with them as a sort of third party like service. And I was just blown away that I was working with machines that were learning. That broke my brain. I was like, I have to figure out how to do this. I'm so smart, but I did not have the economic opportunity to go to college of just like a lot of people. So I figured out how to do that. I quit my job. I went to college part-time. I went to college part-time. I started working at a tech company in Austin part-time, again, doing lots and lots of data stuff. And just like, it was just always a part of my job, but through every job, the through line was trying to get people together to solve problems and trying to get them together to talk to each other and help each other and do their jobs better. So I just continue to do that. I ended up getting a degree in management science, which is also called decision science. There's a big component of operations research in there. So mathematical optimization, programming, basically solving business problems with programming science and math. And then it went on to get my master's in data analytics, data science. So I learned R, SQL, Python, SAS, SPSS, all kind of within the same span of a few years, really got to get a good understanding of what I really, really liked. I gravitated much more strongly towards R, back towards R all the time. And I tutored a lot all through undergrad and grad school. And I also managed our grad cohorts Discord server. I put it together. I wanted to have a place where we could all get together and talk since it was during a pandemic and the university wasn't going to do anything about that. So I did. And I realized that every position, every data position that I was in, I was completely siloed. I was completely put into this little like dark hole and expected to be a coding goblin. And I really just wanted to get people together. So I was continually searching for ways to do a job that would let me do that. And teaching did. So I freelanced, I taught, I taught for Posit as well. And here I am. I started attending the Hangout in 2021 when Rachel started it and I did not stop.
Day in the life
I will say, I would like to give Natasha's question to Rachel. Rachel, what does a day in the life look like for you? What does a normal day look like?
Okay. I feel like everybody says this, like every day is different, or maybe I just have been saying that for a while. So I think everyone says it. But for me, a normal day could be working on a customer spotlight in the morning. So we have so many awesome use cases that are highlighted in Hangouts, but we also have so many customers who share their stories as written spotlights. And so lately I've been working a lot more on those. This week I was building an app with Claude and Positron that was showing like all the different use cases we have across all different industries. Today I also get to talk with a few people from the community who've offered to provide their feedback on our new website, which is coming soon. That's just a little preview for everybody here, because we haven't told everyone that yet. So it's really about different ways where I can bring the customer voice into things that we do at Posit. So again, not the same every day, but it's always like a mix of getting to talk with customers, joining calls, maybe about helping them build their internal community, or getting to jump on a call with one of the sales reps here at Posit and a customer, and then a mix of focus times in between. What about you Libby?
My weeks, I feel like I have to go by a week instead of a day, because right, I've got like this Monday calm before the storm of Tuesday hosting the Data Science Lab, which if you've not been, it's more, it's screen sharing, it's technical content, it's very fun. Isabella and I host it and we have a different person each week who joins us to help us learn about a new technical topic. Or sometimes Isabella and I teach on our own, because we're both very capable teachers and technical people ourselves. Wednesdays are my admin days where I close my 150 browser tabs, I try to update my computer, which is usually holding me hostage at that point to update it, I update all my programs, stuff like that. I try to answer a lot of emails on Wednesday, things like that. Throughout my entire week, of course, I am on Discord a lot. I'm finding people who have questions and helping them answer them. I don't have the answers to all the questions, but I do know people who are much smarter than I am. So I do a lot of being a go between, right, saying like, this person has a question, let me see if I can go find the answer myself, or maybe find someone who has the answer. Thursdays, of course, are data science hangout days, and lots and lots and lots of cross functional meetings.
Building community: challenges and tips
What are challenges that you face being a community, a community builder? And what are tips you would give to folks trying to build community as well?
Oh, nor. I love easy questions. I'm so glad that you asked this question is my favorite question. So the challenges of being a community builder are that people do not willingly volunteer to do things. And the tip that I would give anybody who's trying to build a community is to individually ask people to contribute, because there is a sort of like, misunderstanding global community. And I think that that's misunderstanding globally that happens where it's like, Okay, well, I want to get people together to share a diffused responsibility to do this thing that generally does not actually work. There has to be somebody or somebody's pair of people, maybe who are individually inviting, welcoming, asking, planning, scheduling, right. And the other piece of advice that I would give you is like, you need to find a balance between rigidity and structure and being free form, right? So the place where you need some structure is a schedule, same time, same place, beyond a consistent schedule, you will not meet everybody's needs, right? There will be a bunch of people who are like, I can't do that. I have a standing meeting at that time. That's okay. When they can make it, they will make it do things that are convenient to you as a community builder, because you are the one who is the only one who will always be showing up, right.
And then where you don't want too much rigidity is in the sort of context of the meeting itself. If you if you prescribe it too much and say, this is exactly what we will do for every single minute of this meeting, you will have a bunch of people who don't know how to engage because they will constantly be worried that they're going to do the wrong thing, or have their hands smacked for it, right? You will notice on the discord server that I do not generally bark at anyone if they post something on like a channel that doesn't make sense for that. Because I know that the most beneficial thing is just having someone engage at all and having them welcomed and having their question answered and having a conversation. I don't care where you post stuff. I will probably let you know like, oh, did you know we have a hobby channel? And then that person could go, oh, wow, there's a hobby channel. Yeah, I'll go check it out. But yeah, those are my pieces of advice. Rachel, fill in all my gaps. What did I miss?
No, I think that was great. And I want to make sure we get to a lot of questions. So I won't expand too much. But I think for me, the hardest part is being a people pleaser. And just I always want to make everybody happy. And when I read feedback, I'm like, oh, we should try this. We should try that. But you can't make every single person happy all the time. And I always have to remind myself about that. That's the hardest part for me. Absolutely. That definitely feeds into that. Don't try to ask everybody when they can make a meeting. Just set the meeting. Yeah. And that is maybe this can segue into like, I saw a question about someone who's hoping to start their own internal community. But I think that is the one thing I see from the most new organizers is people try and get everybody's feedback about like, what should the presentation topics be? What kind of workshops do you want to do? Which dates are best? Which location is best? And when you ask too many people for feedback, you just might not make it happen. You might not get started. And so I know Libby and I have joined a few calls with teams who are starting to build their own community. And that is a piece of feedback we'll give them quite a bit is just get started. It doesn't have to be perfect from the start.
Starting a data science community from scratch
But Libby, I think there's an anonymous question, but I see it is Mike from Datacore. And he said, Maggie actually referred him for this specific session. And Mike would love to start a data science hangout in Vietnam. What are the first steps? And does Posit support regional organizers?
Oh, what a great question. The first steps are having a scheduled thing and also having a place where people can talk. So if you use Slack or Teams internally or your organization, setting up a place where everybody can talk and the conversations can continue is really great. And then instead of trying to sort of broadly say, hey, everybody come, everybody come, reach out to a bunch of individuals and say, hey, I really want to talk about data science together as a community, invite them one by one, bring them in. Because again, broadly asking people to volunteer for things is so much less effective. I would almost say ineffective completely compared to reaching out individually, talk to people one on one and get to know them. And then putting something on the calendar. Even if you start with two people, you and one other person and all you are doing is going, well, I don't know what to talk about. Here's what I'm working on today. Let me just show you what I'm doing and pair coding a little bit. You will grow over time into something that is good and that people will keep showing up for. Rachel, how about you?
I think it can either be virtually or in person. It's just that we're not sure how to start it up. Or should it be once per two weeks? Or should we, as Libby mentioned, should we start within our company, even though it's a small company? I mean, a team that is relatively small, we also want to reach out to other universities, other labs that we want to involve people. But just where to start and then maybe can you guys also help if it's not a remote possibility? I just want to hear more.
I would say think about what you could do consistently. Is that every other week? Is it once a month? If you make it easy for yourselves to get together, you can probably do it more frequently. But I think that consistency is so important. And that's what we've seen with the Hangout, because everybody knows that it's every Thursday at the same time, same place, people can come drop by when it fits their schedule. And I know not every single person here can make it every single Thursday. But you know, when you have an opening, you don't have a meeting, you know, the Hangouts here for you, and you can come drop by. So I would recommend that to make it consistent, whatever frequency you do decide on. But I also really love to remind people that you can start small. And that is perfectly okay. Like maybe it's five people getting together in the beginning. But be intentional about like following up with those people and asking what they thought about it, thanking them for being a part of it. And I'm sure they'll start to share it with other people as well. So again, yeah, start starting small is definitely okay. I think we probably had like 20 people in the beginning for the Hangouts.
But as far as how we might be able to help, I think that this is part of our help. Like we would love to give advice, but we're not we're not like in a position to officially host things worldwide, right, because of time zone restrictions. But I will say that one of my hopes is that as we grow over time, and we can't solve every single data science community problem in the world, but as we grow over time, I would love to help more and more people just get these little tidbits of information that can help them. Mike, if you are on the Discord server, I hope you are. Find me, tag me in a channel somewhere so that I can see you and you can absolutely ask questions and we can help you. The biggest pieces of advice, by the way, are still the same things. Set, calendar date, place to talk, and you already have the biggest component that you need, which is you, a person who wants this to happen.
And it's great to have it inside your organization because then you can share about what you're doing and you don't have to keep things like secret or behind closed doors. You can share a little bit more openly with other people. So I do think that doing it inside your organization first would be really, really great, even though you're small. There's so much magic in just sharing with other people what you're working on. Just pair coding can just do so much.
Survey feedback and the Data Science Lab
I wanted to hop into Slido and do a quick answer for one, because someone had asked, hey, around Christmas, we filled in a Data Science Hangout feedback thing, questionnaire. Are there any feedback highlights you can share with us? This is on Isabella and I's radar. We just worked on it right before we had our week off for work week, which was not really a week off, but we were off site. And so we will have something coming out soon. I made the mistake of putting free text fields on almost every single question. And anyone who's worked with survey data knows that that is the thing that takes the longest. The biggest piece of feedback that I got from it was like, what would make things better? And far and away, the biggest one was more hands-on technical content, which made me really happy that we started the Data Science Lab. So if that is what you are looking for, and you would like more of it, come to the lab and let us know what you want to learn about. We are filling our schedule, Isabella and I, with people who can teach us hands-on things that we need to know. Next week, we're going to be joined by Charlie Gao. He's the author of mirai. mirai is an asynchronous programming package. He's going to teach us what is asynchronous programming? How does it differ from parallel programming? How easy is mirai to use? How easy is it to scale your computing on demand? If you have multiple cores on your processor, how can you use them all at the same time to do your work more efficiently? These are things that are blind spots for me, right? I'm a more statistics flavored person than I am a computer science person. If that's you too, come to the Data Science Lab on Tuesday and learn with us, with Charlie. He's also just a wonderful human being, and you're going to have so much fun meeting him.
What makes data science leaders stand out
Okay, I see Adam T asked a question. Adam, do you want to jump in here? I'm actually really glad to see you both as the leaders of the discussion, because especially when you mentioned people who have been to like 10 Hangouts, and I think this is number 10 for me, so it's kind of the perfect. I was like, all right, I'm now there. But this is a personal question, because I didn't come into data science through a data science degree. I went to university to do a few other subjects. None of them involved anything to do with computers until I found the value of learning data science to get through that subject. And now I work in it constantly. So when you meet people like all of us and I'm going now on a limb here that the two of you have probably seen more personalities inside of data science than any of the rest of us, because we're in our own little bubbles and you're seeing all of our bubbles. So the question is, what skills or backgrounds or habits or qualities do you see? And you start to think, actually, I want that. This person didn't have a data science degree. They had a degree in, I don't know, chemistry, but somehow they found their way into data science. And we want that because it's out of the box thinking, is that your thought process or is it more of a personality thing that you look for?
Well, as someone who's not hiring data scientists, it's not things where I'm like looking for specifically, but I would say it's curiosity. I think it's when somebody sees like, oh, this there's this business problem or this came up in this company meeting. I wonder if there's a way that I could go and solve that or I could figure that out with data and then having like taking the initiative to go and like try something out and make it happen. So those are some of the best stories to me when you see like, oh, our president mentioned this, this challenge. I went and I like built this proof of concept and showed it to him to answer that question.
That is almost exactly what I would say as well. Curiosity for me is the thing it's like meeting somebody who keeps asking questions in order to very obviously just get a better grip in their brain on the problem. Tells me like this person's invested. They are going to keep working on this until they they figure it out. The a good example is actually someone who just joined the Hangout for the first time this week. His name is Brian Slattery. I was very lucky. Hey, Brian. I was very lucky to be a part of Brian's R learning journey as an R mentor for him. Brian is the type of person who will go, hey, I have a question about this thing and this thing. And what about this? And and then he will go off and he'll do a bunch of stuff and then he'll come back and be like, look at all this stuff I did. What do you think about this? Where he like was really resourceful and kind of found out a bunch of stuff. That's what I look for. It's like, oh, somebody who's going to be really, really resourceful, go out on their own and solve things, come back and show me what they did with no ego attached to it. That's what I that's the person I want to work with.
Yeah. And then I think also people who want to and this goes along with curiosity, but want to talk to other people, too, and go like figure out what their day to day is like and like what's behind that challenge or what's behind that question that they're asking, too. I think we hear that come up so much in the hangouts, too, about the importance of communication.
Building a positive and authentic community
How did you manage to put together such a positive and authentic community? Did you ever have issues with, for lack of a better word, toxic community members? Rachel, do you want to start with that first? You started the hangout. Or, yeah, I think it goes back to when you are intentionally building something small from the ground up. It's about making sure you have a diverse group from the beginning as well and inviting different people, different roles into the space. But I think sometimes you have to like take a step back and think about like, what do I need to say to make this space welcoming? And think about what if someone was joining for the first time every time? It can get easy for us to maybe think like, oh, people have been here before, so they know what to expect. But we're pretty intentional about at the beginning of every hangout explaining what it is. How do you ask questions? That this is a safe split, a safe space for everybody that you can ask questions anonymously if you want to. And I think that's really important for your own community events to like always let people know what they can expect.
I would say like one of the like toxic things I noticed in the beginning when it first started is like there was almost this like battle of languages that would happen in the chat. And some people would be like saying like, oh, I love R, I love Python. And we were pretty intentional about saying like this is a place for you no matter what languages you use. And I think that's something we actually had to change to our intro to just make sure and also jumping in the chat when if something kind of felt a little off and like commenting the other direction or saying like, hey, that's not cool. I really don't see that here in the hangout, and I love that about this community. But yeah, not being afraid to like jump in when something feels off, too.
I agree. I I think that another aspect of it is that the people who are running it are authentic and open, that Rachel and I are both pretty open people who really like doing this. And Rachel and I both also come from a service industry background, food service, hospitality background, where we really internalized the mission of making a bunch of different people who are in the same space comfortable and at home where they are. And so if you would like to get a primer on welcoming and hospitality, go work in a bar, go work in a restaurant, right? And and figure out how to have a lot of different touch points with different people and also introduce them to each other. A lot of people come together, don't know each other, feel uncomfortable. The thing that you can do as the person who is willing to talk to all of them is introduce them to each other. And that's also a great way to grow. Any community is introducing people to each other because Rachel and I often talk about this, like think about if you were invited to a party where you didn't know anybody, you'd be so much less willing to go if you just weren't going to know anybody except for the host, right? The host can't spend all their time with you. But if you have a buddy who's also going to the party that you can hang out with and maybe that buddy knows a bunch of other people, you're going to feel a lot more like taking care of and and welcomed in that space. So introducing people to each other and also you as community members can help a lot by doing that same thing, inviting other people, saying, hey, this is really fun. Come hang out with me. I'll be in the chat with you and introduce you to people.
Any community is introducing people to each other because Rachel and I often talk about this, like think about if you were invited to a party where you didn't know anybody, you'd be so much less willing to go if you just weren't going to know anybody except for the host, right? The host can't spend all their time with you. But if you have a buddy who's also going to the party that you can hang out with and maybe that buddy knows a bunch of other people, you're going to feel a lot more like taking care of and and welcomed in that space.
There's so much stuff I want us to cover in an hour. It's so hard to fit it in, but I'm glad you brought up the concept of like thinking of it as a party. Like if someone was showing up, it's someone coming to your virtual event. It's like someone's showing up at your door for a party.
Another thing that you can do, like Catherine Girton said in the thing, like good moderators make such a difference, that makes me feel great. Thank you, because that means that I think Rachel and I are doing a good job. But if you are in a digital space, good security goes a long way, right? So get to know your security tools with whatever event platform you're on, because you have a responsibility to take care of the people at your party and to protect them from bad actors. And it's the Internet, you know, like anything can happen on the Internet. But a lot less will happen if you understand Zoom security, Google Meet security, whatever it is. Yeah. And that's something we we had to change as the hangout grew. Like you may remember back in the day, we just let everybody join and be able to unmute whenever they want. And that's not just because like people were doing anything bad. It's like sometimes people accidentally unmute, too. So there's things that you kind of have to change as you grow as well.
